I Disagree with Dan Barker and the Freedom From Religion Foundation
Up until now, it seems the atheist community has done a decent job of getting messages out in public in a way that will do some real good. I’ve seen several billboards and bus signs that do a good job of letting other non-theists know they are not alone. Not a great job, but a good job.
Then comes along this from the Freedom From Religion Foundation.
Let me start by saying I’m an atheist, separation of church and state is critical, and I agree this sign is telling the truth to the best of our ability as a human species about the topic.
At the same time, putting this particular sign and message up next to religious displays like a nativity scene was just stupid.
- Are they winning people over? No.
- Are they putting forth a positive message for non-theists? No.
- Are they celebrating the secular aspects of the holidays? No.
- Are they creating and nurturing any views out there among the religious majority that atheists are rude, inconsiderate, and should be thought of as the enemy? YES!
Now to address some of the specific comments in the video embedded below.
“Christians came along and basically stole this time of year”
Dan, I’m an atheist. This statement makes me want to ask what is wrong with you. It’s true that this time of year had celebrations since long before the Judeo-Christian religions of today where invented. You need not convince me of this. To say that Christians “stole it” is simply ludicrous and carries the implication that every Christian out there who celebrates it is doing something harmful and destructive to us non-theists. It’s just wrong, and I don’t know how you justify it.
“We see the nativity scene as a direct attack on good human values and we would like our place at the table as well”
Your “We” does not include me. It sounds as if you are taking the worst parts of their religion and applying it to one of their most peaceful symbols. The nativity is a cultural tradition….the Christian bible doesn’t even support the historical authenticity of it very well. Again, I would like to see your logic in calling this a “direct attack on good human values.” Perhaps that’s true from the standpoint of ideological zealotry, but not from a pragmatic, critical view of the world.
“If atheists want their own federal holiday sir, go to congress”
This seems to me an expected reaction. Instead of a message of inclusion and/or separation of church and state, Dan and company have come to the table with the message that Christians stole our holiday. If I were in the other shoes, I would also feel like Christmas is under attack. It would be like showing up to a Thanksgiving celebration with a sign that says “The pilgrims were sexist, misogynistic people!” -It may be true, but what a killjoy to pin point a negative aspect and act as if it represents the whole holiday.
I enjoy Christmas. My birthday is Christmas Day, but aside from that, I love the traditional meals, giving presents, and being with family and friends. I love Christmas carols, even the explicitly religious ones. Why can’t we enjoy the holidays right alongside Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc?
“that little baby who became the dictator”
Again, you seem to take a black-and-white view of the world. One of the reasons I started doubting religious dogma was because of the all-or-nothing approach. Either you are saved by Jesus, or you go to hell. You’re not convincing anyone, and not winning any points. Instead, you sound like as much of a zealot as the religious right.
Possible Alternatives for atheist holiday signage
We can still be represented and visible without being offensive. Here are some ideas that could sit alongside religious displays without offending (reasonable people).
- Peace on earth and good will to all!
- Atheists love this time of year too! Happy holidays!
- Happy Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, and whatever reason to celebrate that you have!
- During this holiday season, remember that we are all brothers and sisters regardless of our differences. Happy holidays!
I’d love to hear your thoughts. Leave a comment!
Related blog entries elsewhere:
- Freedom of Religion? Most Americans Don’t Buy It
- Freedom OF Religion not FROM it.
- Generalized Grievances & Hein v. Freedom from Religion Foundation, Inc.
- Freedom From Religion Have Their Atheist Sign Stolen Photo
- Church Growth–>Freedom From Religion
- Washington: Freedom From Religion?
- Freedom From Religion’s Atheist Display in Washington State Capitol
- Freedom From Religion Foundation
- Washington Allows Atheist Anti-Religion Sign Next to Nativity
- Only In Washington: Freedom Against Religion?
- Religion is but Myth and Superstition.
- Atheists Trying To Spoil Christmas
- Debating Atheist Nihilism
- You Don’t Need Religion to be a Jerk
Dec 5th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
Good points Josh. Aggression is not a good way to gain understanding. Assertiveness, though, is appropriate. I’ve never heard of anyone saying, “Thank you for insulting my beliefs – you’re right, I’m wrong!” Because there is no hard, tried and true factual information about religion, all beliefs are subjective. I consider myself Christian, though I don’t align with traditional churches. I have no problem respecting other beliefs as long as they don’t encroach my rights.
The festival of lights celebrating the darkest days of winter was a great way to encourage pegans to recognize christianity though I don’t think it could be considered “stealing.” Having a sale is a way to get people to shop at a store but merchants don’t consider they are stealing from each other, either!
People shop where they want because the store has what they need, just as people have certain belief systems to align with their comfort zones. This is a season filled with holidays and a time to join efforts of humanity rather than destroy alliances.
Thanks for an en-”lightening” commentary!
Dec 5th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
As a Christian, I agree with you. I, though, believe that as any group gets larger there are people who do stupid things in the name of their specific “belief” system that is uncalled for and should be condemned. Hopefully, on this sign Christians will not overreact to all atheists for how they improperly conduct themselves. As well, I hope you could forgive some of some so-called Christians for stupid things we do in the name of God. It is best if we can respectfully engage one another in respect but boldness.
Keep blogging, I frequently read your posts. I hope to continue to learn from my friends who disagree with me.
Dec 5th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
I couldn’t have said it better myself. Thanks for being the REAL voice of reason for the holiday season. Oh, and a very early happy birthday!
Dec 5th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
I am definitely sympathetic to what you have to say here. This was a great opportunity to present a positive secular message for the holidays. The sign, however, is combative and only furthers the feelings among Christians that there is a “War on Christmas”
Dec 5th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
I’m an avid agmystic but I love Christmas. You don’t have to assign any mystical value to any of the season’s festivities but it’s silly not to take the opportunities afforded by this time of year to spend time with friends family and anyone else you love and share with others.
Dec 5th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Thanks for the follow on Twitter! Now, on to my reply to your post.
I’m not sure quite where I stand in this debate. Actually, I probably lean a little toward the militant atheist side just a bit. I think these types of aggressive statements are not necessarily thought to be true even by the parties who make them. Of course, most thoughtful people will have to greatly simplify their beliefs to make them fit on a small sign or a billboard.
The problem is that Atheists are being marginalized by a group of people who have no qualms with intolerance. I’m not lumping all Christians into this group, but the most vocal group of Christians right now have both feet firmly planted in it. The Bill O’Reillys, the Rush Limbaughs and the millions of sheeple who hang onto their every word, these people don’t merely want to be able to celebrate the holiday the way they wish. They already have this. They want a public acknowledgment that their reason and methods of celebrating are the best and only ways. They want to punish companies who try to be inclusive with phrases such as “Happy Holiday’s.” Celebration should be a personal thing, and I’m fine with that. However, how much can you do to defend against intolerance by simply being tolerant? I would love to live in a world in which each person could celebrate however they want and where corporations were not punished for saying “Hey, we’re glad you’re celebrating right now however you may be doing so,” instead of, “Be sure you’re celebrating for the reasons we’ve decided are best this Jesus-day!” Instead, we live in a place where people not only want to celebrate as they choose, but they don’t even want to have to acknowledge that others don’t believe as they do. Fuck those guys!
I’m going to celebrate whenever, whatever, and however I want. Just because most people are celebrating the birth of a so-called prophet doesn’t mean I can’t participate in a concurrent celebration of my love for my family or even just rabid consumerism. Not only that but businesses that choose to cave to the “One-true-God” lobby and discard my feelings by proclaiming that I buy from them to celebrate the one true reason for the season will have also discarded my business and they need to hear about it!
Sorry for the focus on advertising messages, but I think that’s really what this whole “War on Christmas” is about. I think it’s about how the holiday is portrayed in television commercials and newspaper circulations. Lucky for us, the almighty dollar speaks much louder to corporations than the Almighty, and they would rather be inclusive than risk alienating customers of other faiths and losing that cash.
The other side is not merely saying, “Here is what I want for this holiday season.” They intend to say, “Here is what I want for you this holiday season.” What is the problem with us doing the same. If you think they will see how passive we are being and decide to live and let live, I think you may be mistaken. I believe they will take this as a sign of weakness and an opportunity delivered by their god to crush Satan (That’s you and me!) once and for all!
Wow! Maybe I got a little carried away there.
Dec 5th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
First, thanks for the Twitter add.
Second, I have to say I agree with you in that this Dan Barker went about it the wrong way. Personally, I think he’s an idiot and makes the rest of us look bad. It’s very hard to progress the idea that atheists are not the evil, misguided monsters we’re portrayed as and that, on average, we are more tolerant than religiously minded individuals; especially when someone like Mr. Barker is placing signs like that in public places. Of course, it’s understandable why he did it, it’s just not acceptable the way he did it. C’mon.. it’s a time for peace and cheer. He didn’t need the abrasive rhetoric to stir up controversy.
Personally, I hate Christmas but not because of the religious aspects (because we all know it isn’t Christ’s birthday). I hate it because of how commercial it has become. It’s become rather secular anyway, with the idea that purchasing gifts and eating ham is more important than being kind to your fellow man, not to mention that one can’t even say Merry Christmas without getting dumped on about it.
So yeah.. good on ya for the article and… Merry Christmas!
@1071
Dec 5th, 2008 at 9:32 pm
1071
I wanted to comment on your use of the word secular because I have been baffled today by another atheist blog posting on another site who regarded the use of that word to mean “atheistic”. The person he was citing I do not believe meant this word in that manner nor would I if I used it but I thought maybe this is something inside the atheistic culture that I was unaware of. Now I see it used by an atheist in a way I would use it.
I am curious, do atheists see the word “secular” as necessarily meaning atheism? (I am not trying to cause a fight, but it is something I have been pondering all day).
Dec 5th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
“I am curious, do atheists see the word “secular” as necessarily meaning atheism?”
There’s a really funny story that I plan to write in the future for you, myself(in case I forget), this blogger and his/her(we don’t know ‘fersure’) commenters, called..
“Everybody thinks different, Jackass!”
It’s really an autobiography or ‘note to myself, so don’t get ‘in a huffington’(lose the accent if you need to).
In short, “Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, Thanksgiving is great, there are NO gods, not. even. one.”
Dec 6th, 2008 at 12:44 am
Derick,
Secular does not mean atheism. It means not religious or not having to do with religion.
Dec 6th, 2008 at 5:15 am
Derick,
As James pointed out, it means non-religious and that’s how I meant it. I don’t believe anyone thinks Christmas is atheistic. Pagan, maybe..
Cheers!
Dec 6th, 2008 at 8:52 am
It seems that Atheists have the same problem Christians have “one bad apple” syndrome.
As a Christian it always seems (notice I keep saying seems, as in when dealing with matters of faith and religion, it is an annoying to the other side to speak in absolutes)to me that when Atheist ‘activists’ get on television they always point to the most Extreme in the group as reason that all Christians are hypocritical idiots. That is simply not the case. The large number of Christians are good people who live as close to their beliefs as possible, but recognize that we are all humans who make mistakes.
I will admit I don’t really understand Atheists. To me, again only my humble opinion, it seems rather arrogant to believe that you are the center of the Universe. I’m just saying…The Atheists I know (that number is larger than I’d like to admit…) have all suffered a loss in their life and have choosen to decide that if “God existed he wouldn’t have let (insert bad thing here) happen to me.” Thy are often a bit bitter and brooding. I’m not judging I’m just offering a different perspective.
Well I have had some horrifying things happen in my life, that I would not have survived without my faith and I Believe the hand of God guiding me. When people find out about my traumatic past, they are always surprised because I am so well adjusted and positive. That is God at work, in my opinion.
I’ll keep reading, because I’m fascinated….
Dec 6th, 2008 at 9:49 am
James and 1071,
Thanks, I appreciate your clarification. That is how I take it but when one atheist doesn’t I begin to question if that is how all atheist take the word.
Have a good day. See you guys on other posts.
Dec 6th, 2008 at 10:53 am
I mean, Dan Barker has freedom of speech and expression so I don’t think he should be forced to take the poster down, and the fact that someone stole the sign is disrespectful. I do agree that being positive in this time of holiday cheer would probably get the message across better. That being said, what is a nativity scene doing at a legislative building?? Separation of church and state, anyone?
Here’s the article:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/12/05/atheists.christmas/index.html
@ biased girl — Maybe this will come across as “bitter and brooding” but you insult atheist’s intelligence by saying the only reasoning behind our beliefs is the fact that “something bad happened to me and if there was a god, he would have prevented it”. There are many logical arguments that disprove the existence of God. We don’t have to rely on personal anecdotes, nor are we “arrogant” as you put it. If you continue reading this blog or other atheist blogs, be a little less patronizing and a little more open-minded.
Dec 6th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
BiasedGirl, you say, “I will admit I don’t really understand Atheists. To me, again only my humble opinion, it seems rather arrogant to believe that you are the center of the Universe.”
Well,(in my case at least), as an atheist(not Atheist), it would indeed be rather arrogant to beieve that I was the center of the Universe.
Then again, I think that it is rather arrogant of you to suppose, since you admit no understanding of the topic of atheism, that atheists, in general, would be believing such nonsense.(although I’m sure that a certain percentage(equivalent to the same percentage of Christians, perhaps)DO imagine themselves the center of the Universe.
Really now, from your unique perspective as YOU, don’t you find yourself ‘central’ to your ‘world’?
Of course you KNOW that, who doesn’t, and are just being snide, in typical passive-aggressive manner, right?
You DID say, in so many words, that you don’t know ANYTHING about people like me, then proceed to imply that we must all be narcissists, isn’t that RIGHT?
Dec 6th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Sorry, BiasedGirl again, “I’ll keep reading, because I’m fascinated….”
Yea, sure, you lit the fuse on that one and are willing to wait for the explosion of ‘atheist-hate’!
Unless you’ve drowned in your own ’smug’ in the meantime! LOL
Dec 7th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
I tried to watch the video, couldn’t make it all the way through – news “interviews” wear down my patience too fast.
Anyway, Josh, I really enjoyed reading what you had to say, and I agree with you. As a member of the FFRF (although I don’t think I’m paid up for 2009 yet), I would really like to hear Dan Barker’s response to your post. I don’t want to stir up a lot of argumentative nonsense, but it might be good for him to check out the counterpoint to his tactics that at least a few people find unhelpful. Do you see any chance of opening up a constructive dialogue?
-Hugh
Dec 7th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
BiasedGirl, thanks for the comment! I agree that it is bad form for either side to pick out the most radical examples and use them as representative of the entire group. It’s cherry-picking at best, outright deceit at worst.
I can assure you that my reasons for being an atheist are diverse. It amounts to many different lines of evidence and critical thinking that all point to the same conclusion. I do not go so far as others to say that the existence of any deity has been disproved; the position I hold is much more like a scientific position….always subject to revision based on new and compelling evidence. Science is provisional by its very nature, and so is my atheism.
Dec 7th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Thank you, everyone, for your comments. (And I hope to get more!)
Everyone, I hope we can have some positive discourse here among all different world views. I know it is easy for an atheist to feel insulted by things a believer takes for granted; and the same happens the other way too.
Put yourself into the other person’s shoes for a moment and remember that we are all members of the human race, and are all worthy of respect and consideration as long as we give it freely to others.
Dec 7th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
Just in case I’m confusing anyone, I am both Josh and Atheistik on this site. I set up the “Josh” account so I could test different roles with this multi-user blog.
Hugh, that is an excellent suggestion. I would love for Dan and/or other members of the FFRF to review my thoughts here and give a response. As a member, perhaps you could assist by forwarding this link on to whomever you deem appropriate within the organization.
I can be contacted at joshnankivel at gmail.com
Dec 8th, 2008 at 11:33 am
To those that chose to attack my opinions…You can believe whatever you’d like, I don’t care. I’m not judging. Just try and apply that to how you feel about me or any other person who believes in God, by whatever name they call him (or her).
You think we are stupid, irrational and judgemental, sometimes people see in others what they are capable of themselves…
Dec 8th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
BiasedGirl, you said, “To me, again only my humble opinion, it seems rather arrogant to believe that you are the center of the Universe.”
I didn’t ‘attack’ this. I AGREED with it.
But, together with your previous sentence, it seemed to me that you were implying that atheists are ‘guilty’ of this arrogance, AND NOT Christians(our friendly neighborhood theists).
You say, “You think we are stupid, irrational and judgemental, sometimes people see in others what they are capable of themselves…”
Once again, I agree with the general sense that everyone can be those things, but you seem to imagine that you are allowed to ‘imply’ away that first, atheists are the only ones imagining that they are the center of the Universe then NOW, it is atheists who are stupid, irrational amd judgemental!
Simply because you phrase your barbs in a passive voice with disclaimers that ‘it is only your opinion’ and ‘you’re not being judgemental’, that doesn’t ‘immunize’ your ‘digs’ from reponse.
Am I wrong in believing that when you say, “You think we are stupid, irrational and judgemental, sometimes people see in others what they are capable of themselves…”
… you are MEANING, “You, Atheists, think we, me or any other person who believes in God, are stupid, irrational and judgemental,(AND THAT) sometimes people, ATHEISTS see in others, me or any other person who believes in God, what they, Atheists, are capable of themselves…”
You say, “You can believe whatever you’d like, I don’t care.”
Isn’t this a nice, round about way of saying, “SHUT UP!”?
Dec 8th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Thank you pboyfloyd, for saying exactly what I wanted to say to biasedgirl. I couldn’t have done it better.
Dec 9th, 2008 at 11:25 am
Thanks for your support of my comments, Dollface. I certainly hope that BiasedGirl ‘took something away’ from them too.
She cared enough to write the first comment and it has been my experience that theists can jump all over ‘careless’ generalizations of them on public forums(fora?).
Sadly this juxaaposing her, “humble opinion” and “Atheist arrogance” was, we hear, not, easily misunderstood bad wording at all.
On topic, I liked Dan Barker’s plaque. It is as blatantly ‘atheist’ as Nativity Scenes are anti-separation of Church and State are.
Apparently folk who feel strongly about separation of Church and State are required to ‘tsk’ impotently at those crazy Christians for stepping on the ’state’s-toes’ and NOTHING MORE.(Seriously, NOTHING, isn’t THAT RIGHT, BiasedGirl?)
Dec 9th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
I 100% agree with you.
IMO, these aggressive toned messages do the atheist community far more harm than good, the signs are just angering people instead of helping to open their minds up to reason and acceptance of others beliefs.
Dec 10th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
Thanks for the comment on my site on this topic. I still like my alternative sign suggestion better, “Token symbol to represent the atheist voice”. But to appease the Dan Barkers out there that want to push the original holiday celebration behind Christmas maybe they can add, “happy winter solstice” at the end.
Dec 11th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
To me, seeing these nativity scenes are equivalent to seeing the confederate flag. There is a lot of negativity behind the history of that flag, just how I feel there is a lot of negativity behind religion in general due to all the fighting, hatred, and general intolerance it breeds. This does not mean people should not be able to express themselves. I would never call for the nativity scene to be taken down, and I do not believe that is what Dan Barker intended. I fully support in getting the word out that being a good human being does not go hand in hand with religion. The only reason anyone would take this as an “attack” is because of intolerance. Otherwise it’s just one viewpoint being presented right next to another. On one side there is a sign saying “there is a god”, and right next to it one that says “there is no god”. That’s all it is. But because we are the minority view, it is viewed as “offensive”. If you were going to call one offensive, you really should be calling the other equally offensive.
Dec 13th, 2008 at 2:32 am
In general I agree with militant Atheism (capital A) rubbing me the wrong way a bit. More than a bit, actually. But maybe it’s because I come from a rather secular country, and as a northern European, the only time I have met any expressively religious people they were fundie nuthatches out on a conversion crusade, like Jehovah’s Witnesses and that lot. I mean, I was never baptized, and nothing strange in that.
So basically, I never had to fight for my scientific standpoint. Actually, I don’t even start with defining myself as an atheist. I am a humanist, acknowledging scientific enlightenment. It is not until we add religions (of any kind), supernatural belief, including new age, or superstitions, that I add the definition: As a humanist, not basing anything in my belief system on anything supernatural, I have no theist explanations in my outlook on life. Therefore, I am an a-theist.
@BiasedGirl: “I will admit I don’t really understand Atheists. To me, again only my humble opinion, it seems rather arrogant to believe that you are the center of the Universe.”
Actually, as humanists, we acknowledge the achievements of the human race, good and bad. Which also means we, as human beings, must take responsibility for our actions. We can’t blame, nor give credit to any kind of father figure that our insecurities urge us to create. And remember, we humanists also have insecurities, it is, after all, human.
I will admit that I don’t really understand the relation Christians (for instance) must have to doubt. Or let us give it a capital D. Since sin does not really exist, there is no sin with a capital s, hence we can use that capital letter for Doubt, instead.
Is it a bad thing to have Doubt? To follow the orders of a supernatural being who demands you must trust him (and thus in conclusion, his earthly spokesmen, I guess), so when you doubt, you fail?
You must have something in yur liturgy to address this issue, since it is fundamental to Doubt?
As humanists, our approach is probably different. Doubt is fundamental, it is in fact a spur for us, it is at the heart of scientific enlightenment. Every thesis, every theory, every concept, must have had, and preferably retain, an element of doubt in it.
And all these achievments, I, as a humanist, acknowledge. But there is no way I can stretch anything, *anything at all* in humanist belief that gives us the conclusion “to believe that you are the center of the Universe”. On the contrary. We are not at the centre. We are part of it, we affect it and are affected by it. We. Animals. Plants. Soil. Mountains. Seas. Weather systems.Cosmic rays. Meteors. Stars. Black Holes. Electrons. Quarks.
But supernatural beings? No.
That is the fabric of existence. There is no centre in it. You can create temporal centres while you work with a theory, or discuss with another person, but that is just temporal, a viewpoint.
To me, the true arrogance is to belief that there is an ultimate, supernatural being and that we humans are created in his image. That would make us humans (or does that take any possible sentient alien life forms into account?) being The Chosen Ones by A God.
And that, to me, is the height of arrogance.
It’s a two hour video, but I can really recommend watching the talks between four fine minds (Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens):
http://www.thinkatheist.com/video/1982180:Video:6498
http://www.thinkatheist.com/video/1982180:Video:6501
Dec 13th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
Howdy folk,
I believe that the basic issue with the sign from the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) in the state of Washington is the same issue that created the original wording of a similar sign placed in the capital building for the state of Wisconsin – namely the religious entanglement of church and state.
One would think that with all of the tax-exempt church property all over the place – that there would be plenty of opportunity for religious folk to place “nativity scenes” on private property. The issue is when a “nativity scene” is place on public property that the entanglement of church and state ensues. The FFRF would never place one of their signs on a private “nativity scene” on private property.
I fully support what the FFRF is doing with their efforts in breaking up a large number of entanglements between church and state. I am proud to be an Assertive Atheist doing my part in confronting the over zealousness and audacity exhibited by many Theists that believe they have the Right to encroach upon the Public sector – with out and out Propaganda. Although to date, both Theists and Atheists tend to take a provincial view that the contest between Atheism and Theism has only been around for a few thousand years – the truth is that this contest has been going on for better than 2.9 Million years.
Recently, Assertive Atheists finally speak up and place this contest is the larger human picture.
On my new Website of http://www.assertiveatheistmoments.com I present a different orientation as to what the Epistemology of Atheism covers. The focus is on Symbols and Symbolic Form (ala Cassirer) combined with Symbolic Anthropology (ala Geertz). Roughly, the orientation is that during the evolution from proto-Homo Sapiens to Homo Sapiens, commencing 3 million years ago, the physical brain size and brain mass increased three-fold, due to the use of Symbols and Tools. During this 3 Million year evolutionary process, the Symbols for Atheism and the Symbols for Theism have also evolved.
With the written word being around for no longer than 100,000 years, there is a 2.9 Million period during which we know very little about the evolution of the Symbols of Atheism and the Symbols of Theism. It is during this 2.9 Million year period that the origins of the Symbols of Atheism and the Symbols of Theism begin. Although we know little, we can apply Cassirer’s orientations to Symbols and Symbolic Form to learn and Know more.
This places a totally different take on the notion of Assertive Atheism.
Bob
Apr 16th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
Hey, Josh, grow a pair. If you’re not willing to call out religion, ignorance, and bigotry (they all seem to walk hand in hand, don’t they), at ANY time of year, you may as well call yourself a unitarian. Dogmatic organized religion, complete with immoral fairy tales, IS detrimental to society and we should speak out against it.
Jul 27th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
I agree with things on both sides. I think honestly we do need to stand up for what we believe in and start voicing how we feel HOWEVER I agree 100% instead of helping he brought us back not one or two but three steps he walked himself into a slaughter.
If your going to be going in you can’t go in with anger you must go in with a message that will not make people of a Theistic nature feel like monsters but more or less make them understand how ignorant some of their beliefs are instead of making us look like hate speakers ourselves.